In the aftermath of unification, the Canadian Forces were struggling to deal with the changes that overtook them, not least the Trudeau government’s relative indifference to the military, the impact of bilingualism, and massive reorganization. General Jacques Dextraze, who became chief of the defence staff in 1972, and Sylvain Cloutier, the deputy minister in the Department of National Defence from 1971 to 1975, played key roles in managing the changes. Interviews conducted by J.L. Granatstein in 1988 indicate where they agreed—and disagreed—and tell us much about the characters of these two key figures.